Disable-Adblock.png

We have detected that your browser is using AdBlock

Police Community is a not for profit organisation and advertising revenue is key to our continued viability.

Please disable your AdBlocker on our site in order to continue using it.
This message will disappear once AdBlock has been disabled.

Thank you for your support - we appreciate it !

If you feel you are getting this message in error please email support@policecommunity.co.uk

Reasonable Man

Resident Members
  • Content count

    3,902
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    64

Everything posted by Reasonable Man

  1. Reasonable Man

    Air-brained scheme

    I'm going to get promoted with a brilliant plan. I'm going to combine the two ideas. In the day time I'll get the officers to walk behind the people carrying cash with the magaphone shouting. 'Don't rob that lady, she might have £200 in cash in her bag but I'm watching her.' Then at night I'll get the officers to follow the burglars around at a discrete distance. Then they can arrest them in the act!! Don't know why someone didn't think of it before.
  2. Reasonable Man

    Public Vs Police Attitudes

    M&MBM you need to find a keen probationer, one who hasn't tried to deal with this type if report before. I had a few goes before realising the futility of it all. The converation goes something like, PC: Hello Sir/Ma'am, where you the driver of a big truck on the M25 on Saturday?' Driver: Yes I probably was I took a load from A to B on Saturday. PC: We have had a report that you were driving without due consideration for other road users (and maybe a caution). D: What? I'm a professional driver with £80,000 rig and a valuable load. I bet it was that idiot who cut me up in the [car] as we went into the road works wasn't it? PC: The allegation is that you were tailgating a [car], driving in an aggresive and intimidating way. D: Unbelievable, I drive a million miles a year and have a clean licence. That idiot forced her way in as carriageway was narrowed, probably took a few cones out, forced me to brake hard and she then kept speeding up and slowing down just to annoy me. Car drivers don't realise that in a rig you have to change up and down through 16 gears. I was going to make a complaint about her, but then you see so many dangerous drivers on the road you can't report them all. But now you now who she is I want to make a statement and take her to court. PC: Well she says you could have caused and accident... D: How on earth can she say that? I was trying to do a constant 40, I have to save every drop of fuel you know. If I waste diesel it's out of my wages. She was slowing to 30 so I had to brake then she was up to 50 then down to 30 again. She was laughing and gesticulating in the mirror. So are you going to do her then, she's admitted that it was her. After a couple of these you realise that without a couple of independent witnesses this is going nowhere. And the next time you tell Mrs Honestly Indignant this there's another dip in the Public v Police Attitudes - At the next dinner party - 'I reported it to the police but they weren't interested. They wouldn't even go and give the driver a warning!' 'Tut tut, what do we pay our taxes for?'
  3. Reasonable Man

    No complaints from Brighton protesters - yet!?

    And I am sure that after recent weeks the instruction was, 'Conceal your numbers whenever policing a protest.' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm damn sure in my Force we would be given sandwich boards with 2ft high numbers on front and back. And a Ch. Insp would be appointed as the 'Numerals Commander' with a bag full of spare numbers to attach should any fall off!!
  4. Reasonable Man

    Obscene chants

    Remonds me of a story (never found out is it was true) where the PC is working in the Enquiry Office, leaning on the desk studying the form in the Racing Post when the Chief Constable comes in. PC doesn't look up despite much clearing of the Chief's throat. 'Excuse me, constable...' starts the Chief. 'Hang on mate, I'm busy.' 'Do you know who I am, young man?' PC shouts out to the back office, 'Sarge, there's a bloke out here who doesn't know who he is.'
  5. Reasonable Man

    oh dear

    From the Sentencing Advisory Panel's guidlines: ...In its proposal the Panel advises that, to mark the gravity of an offence resulting in death, the starting point for sentence should normally be imprisonment. The standard of the offender's driving at the time of the offence should be the primary factor in determining the seriousness of an offence. The Panel recommends: a short custodial sentence for an offence arising from a momentary error of judgment or short period of bad driving, where there are no aggravating features; a custodial sentence of 2-5 years when the standard of the offender's driving is more highly dangerous, e.g. aggressive driving or greatly excessive speed, or when the offender has consumed alcohol or drugs; a custodial sentence over 5 years, up to the maximum of 10 years, for the most serious offences, where the offender has driven with complete disregard for the safety of other road users and where other aggravating features are present. So it appears that the sentence was bang on the recommendations. But, Simples, he won't be in prison for 3 years, he will do 18 months, which I am sure will seem like 18 years to him, as for a cop in prison must be like doing two sentences in one - the time and the constant fear of what might happen. And even after that will there ever be a day in the rest of his life when he doesn't wish, 'If only...'. The self punishment will go on. Having said that there's a family that will never see their daughter grow up, a father robbed of walking her down the aisle, grandchildren that now will never be. And then again isn't this the case in many of these tragic cases? Two or more families devestated by a moment of, mistake? inattention? madness? And do we feel for the drivers in the following cases? http://www.thisissomerset.co.uk/news/Death-driver-sentence-increased/article-849965-detail/article.html or http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/news/Death-crash-driver-s-sentence-insultingarticle-716493-details/article.html or http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1029749/Hands-free-phone-driver-convicted-causing-death-dangerous-driving.html
  6. Reasonable Man

    Air-brained scheme

  7. Reasonable Man

    Retired Officers - Lump Sum Winners

    The Financial Advisor at our pre-retirement course said always take the maximum lump sum as any (sensible) investment would make up the difference between the max and min pensions - that was before the credit crunch though. Also if you die your the widow's pension is the same whether you have commuted or not. Reasonable Man2009-05-04 22:19:43
  8. Reasonable Man

    Retired Officers - Lump Sum Winners

    Dhofar76 - its all about life expentency. It was calculated that if you take the max monthly pension at, say £120 a month you get that until you die. If you decide to commute and only get £100 a month the £20 gets multiplied up (used to be x15 max) to a lumper of £300. The idea being that Mr Average (Mrs Average got more!) would live for 15 months after retirement and draw a pension of £1800 - either 15 x £120 or 15 x £100 + £300. So if you lived beyond the 15 months and didn't take a lump sum you would be getting more than the colleague who did. When the age expetancy went up to 19 months worth of pension it was unfair on the lump sum recipients because over the 19 months they would be £80 worse off (4 extra months of life at £20 pm less than the full pension people). So to make it fair the lumper multiplier went up to 19 (max) so now Mr Average gets either 19 x £120 = £2,280 or 19 x £100 + £380 = £2,280 All figures for illustration purposes only. You are likely to live for more than 15 months after retirement. (Past performance is no gaurantee of future returns, NOT regulated by the FSA).
  9. Reasonable Man

    Public Vs Police Attitudes

    For the very same reason I hate traffic - that and the fact the most traffic 'offenders' are basically honest working people going about their lawful activities. Stems from pre-CPS days when the police would run the Magistrates Courts and I would take my turn at running the 'MCA' stuff - licensing applications and the guilty pleas including those pleading guilty by post. Typical morning would include ABH - guilty plea. Solicitor of defendant (legal aid) tells how his client didn't really mean to break his girlfriend's nose. He was depressed because didn't have a job. But he just started one and they were back together (no evidence of this) severe punishment would hamper his return to normal society. So the beak gives him a stern talking to, last chance etc. and fines him £25. (I know that he beats his girlfriend up every week usually when he is high on drugs). Shoplifter - serial shoplifter - Solicitor tells all about how he only stole because he was hungry (that would be the Mars Bar then, what about the 4 cans of Special Brew and the batteries?), had no place to live, but just got a flat and was on the straight an narrow - £10 fine, pay at 50p a week and 'don't do it again'. Yob in for public order - shouting and swearing, threatened the officer, fought on arrest. Solicitor says how he only got drunk because his girfriend dumped him but now their back together and he is really sorry. Conditional Discharge. Travelling salesman doing 85 on dual carriageway in light traffic. Guilty by post as couldn't afford a day off work, nor pay for a solicitor - £50 fine 3 points. Lorry driver got his truck weighed and was overloaded on one axle. Overall weight within limit. Again can't afford a solicitor but turns up with his boss to argue that the load was livestock and so moved around so they couldn't help it that more decided to stand at the front/back. Guilty - driver fined £50 his boss fined £100 for cause/permit. Of course 'we' know the first 3 and we know that they will be back, with the same sob stories. And their equivalents from a few months back were also in court to explain why they hadn't been paying their £1's and 50p's a month. I knew, because they were spending £20 every Sat night in the pub. So the first three shake their solicitors' hands and leave with a smile on their face, while the motorists shake their heads and leave feeling disillusioned. So I stayed away from traffic unless it was really dangerous stuff - boy racers racing around the town, drink drivers, and once a pick up that was so overloaded the tyres were rubbing on the wheel arches! but I called a traffic car up for help with that one, and they were delighted. The point being on the Police v Public attitudes is that the 'criminals' opinions of the police doesn't change through the experience of court whereas the motorists were probably 'pro' before their police contact.Reasonable Man2009-05-04 10:26:44
  10. Reasonable Man

    The best Joke ever ??????

    See http://jokegurus.com/category/anecdotes/internet-wisdom/ for some excellent examples of dumb lawyers and witnesses. A couple of my favourites: Lawyer: “Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?” Witness: “No.” Lawyer: “Did you check for blood pressure?” Witness: “No.” Lawyer: “Did you check for breathing?” Witness: “No.” Lawyer: “So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?” Witness: “No.” Lawyer: “How can you be so sure, Doctor?” Witness: “Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar.” Lawyer: “But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?” Witness: “Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere.” --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lawyer: “Now sir, I’m sure you are an intelligent and honest man–” Witness: “Thank you. If I weren’t under oath, I’d return the compliment.” --------------------------------------------------------------------- Lawyer: “Did he pick the dog up by the ears?” Witness: “No.” Lawyer: “What was he doing with the dog’s ears?” Witness: “Picking them up in the air.” Lawyer: “Where was the dog at this time?” Witness: “Attached to the ears.”
  11. Reasonable Man

    Public Vs Police Attitudes

    I think this is sort of thing that the public don't always understand. To the public it is 'the police' who are dealing with their case not a particular officer. Not everyone appreciates that every officer at the station is probably carrying a workload of 15-20 jobs and we don't all jointly deal with every investigation. Hopefully the officer in SB's case explained this before they went on leave and not after. My sister (adult) was out walking her dog and saw a man masturbating, not 'at' her but towards two teenage girls. She phoned the police on her mobile and the man saw her and started to walk towards her. She stayed on the mobile explaining what was happening and he started runnning towards her so she ran and was being chased in an isolated area. Units arrived and the man was arrested. She made a statement and the officer dealing said he would try to trace the two girls and keep her informed. Two months later she asked me to find out what was happening. I checked the crime report and there was nothing on there since she made her statement. I found out that the offender was on bail for other offences at the time of this incident and he had been dealt with for those and was in prison but had not been dealt with for this one, not even a TIC. I emailed the OIC asking him to update my sister as per the Victims' Charter (didn't let him know it was a relation of mine just said Mrs X has phoned in to ask...). No reply to me from the OIC and no update to my sister. This was two years ago, the crime report has been filed and she has never been told of the outcome. She was delighted at the initial response and the first visit to her to take the statement but feels let down as nothing was actually done after that.
  12. Reasonable Man

    St Georges day

    SB - this may have been because of a breach of planning regulations rather than offence at the type of flag. There was uproar in my local paper a couple of years back when it was reported that flags poles need planning permission and people were writing in saying they wouldn't be taking theirs down. Also if H&S was involved surely not a dangerous ladder. If the person had to have their feet more than 600mm (2 feet) above ground level they would have needed scaffolding with hand rails and kick boards.
  13. Reasonable Man

    Air-brained scheme

    The only good thing about this scheme is the WPC (am I allowed to call them that?) with the magaphone. Now I wouldn't mind being woken up by her! Typical 'Sun' / Daily Mail paper talk though. [elderly resident] said: ”"I don’t want police officers coming into my house and bellowing at me with a megaphone telling me to lock my windows and doors." As though even the the dumbest cop would stick his/her megaphone in the ear a sleeping OAP and blast out, 'YOUR FRONT DOOR'S OPEN'. But the paper prints it and before long someone tells someone that the police are doing this because 'I read it in the paper' so it must be true!!! And in 18 years of patrol work I never found a house door left open.
  14. Reasonable Man

    Counting Rules

    It was what was introduced in 1986 to tie one hand behind our backs in the fight against crime - a couple of years before the CPS were introduced to tie the other one. I remember being told by an old Detective Sgt that when questioned in the box about whether you had complied with Judges Rules I was to say, 'To the best of my recollection but they are guidance only so I am not compelled to.' A friendly magistrate would stop the solicitor from pursuing that line of questioning. It never worked with PACE!!
  15. Reasonable Man

    Counting Rules

    BS3, I didn't think I was making an assumption, I was just trying to understand how any officer would not know that the HOCR exist. You started this post with 'Can't believe what I learned at work today. Apparently ACPO and the Home Office and ACPOS and the Scottish Government have agreed rules on how crimes should be recorded and 'counted'.' Whilst the NCRS is a fairly new addition the HOCRs have been around for decades. The NCRS was created not because of the Government trying to manipulate figures but by Chief Constables fed up of being criticised for their figures when they knew that other forces were not complying with the existing Rules. I remember 20+ years ago, before the days of FCRs, having to negotiate/argue with the 'CID Admin Supervisor' as to how many of the offences I had charged someone with could be crimed. Didn't realise that you were in a Scottish force so perhaps that makes a difference but to me your opening thread was a bit like me saying. 'Guess what I learned in work today. I arrested someone and couldn't charge them within 24hrs and the Custody Sgt released them, unbelievable! Apparently the government have some rules called PACE that insists on this. How many guilty people are being let out because of this soft approach?'
  16. Reasonable Man

    Public Vs Police Attitudes

    I think that sometimes we forget that the majority of the public still appreciate and respect us. Yes we live in a society where people know more about their rights, a younger generation that is taught to challenge and with a litigious element but for my sanity I try to put a positive spin on that - we should use this to sharpen our own minds, make sure that what we say and do is legal and ethical. A hunt saboteur (remember when hunting was lawful?) taught me to be better informed. He politely asked me searching questions about the legality of my actions and it became obvious that he knew more about the law around his activities than I did. So I decided I would never find myself in that position again, if I could help it. I also remind myself every now and then that of the 50,000 people who live in the town where I work the idiots who we spend a disproportionate amount of time running around after number less than 100 so 99.8% of the people are reasonable. The sad thing is that most people have respect for the police until they have an encounter with one of us. Ignoring the motorists who get annoyed because they should not done for speeding/no seat belt/using a mobile phone but everyone else should it's the people who ask for our help that I feel for. Often this comes down to expectations and I find that it is often benficial to establish this at an early stage. You do find the victim who has had his car aerial snapped off expecting a team of forensic scientists and the DCI around within 5 minutes of reporting it, then a team of 20 detectives working around the clock until the offender gets sent down for 5 years. Most people are reasonable and I usually ask them what the expect and then let them know what we are able to deliver. They may be a little disappointed when they realise that real life is not like 'The Bill' - we can't get the whole shift working on one job and solve it in an hour - but come the end of the case they realise that I have done what I promised and all I could.
  17. Reasonable Man

    Counting Rules

    Apologies if anyone thought I was disparaging to any role, we are all necessary cogs in a big machine - even the HQ ESSOs. In my experience though the 'Rodent noir' as we affectionally call our Road Traffic Policing colleagues make more arrests for crime than the CID. Having done so though it is still expected for an element of crime recording, evidence gathering, statements etc for a quality handover package - and even complete the job in straightforward cases. Penbwich, all the specialist roles are just that - specialist - to get there everyone has to have had a few years of the basics before moving on - hence my surprise that BS3's initial comment about just learning about it, unless s/he is a probationer and so just learning about crime recording.
  18. Reasonable Man

    Counting Rules

    But the NCRS to tighten the application of the rules means at least there is common recording across forces and not individual interpretation that meant that a force with an ethical recording policy gets a higher crime rate than their neighbouring force with a more selective policy. Take a different set of circumstances - you and your two neighbours park your cars in the street and a yob comes along and runs his key down the side of all 3 cars. Is that one crime or three crimes? (HOCR say 3) Slightly different case - the yob walks up your driveway and keys your car, goes into your garden and knocks the head off your gnome and smashes a hole in your fence - 1 crime or 3? (it's 1) Or there are cars for sale on a garage forecourt and the yob smashes the windscreen of three of them - one crime or three? (again 1 - one victim). There could always be an allegation of under (or over) recording and you could get to a ridiculous situation where an offender carries a knife to commit a burglary (aggravated burglary), he breaks a window (criminal damage) to climb in, is in the process of stealing the silver (theft) when he gets disturbed, pulls the knife and threatens the owner (affray)then pushes him over (common assault). The owner gets up and the offender punches him breaking his nose (ABH). Owner grabs hold of offender who stabs him (GBH Sec 18, attempted murder?). At least 7 crimes committed in this incident - apart from the ones leading up to it (offensive weapon/carrying a knife/going equipped). With your logic this should be that many crimes (and that many charges?) In reality he would be charged with the most serious assault and probably the aggravated burglary but only one offence would be recorded - the most serious assault. If you know what offences are likely to be charged then you can concentrate on gathering evidence to prove the points of those offences rather than perhaps wasting time covering other matters that will not be dealt with.
  19. Reasonable Man

    Counting Rules

    BS it is about the date thay they are reported and the victim offender relationship. I am just trying to indicate to you that the HOCR do not allow you to record it as one crime and then change it to four if they are detected. As much as I prefer to be doing police work I do, unfortunately, have to know a bit about HOCR, NCRS and NIRS in my job. I do not doubt that some individuals will try it on in the way you describe but heaven help a force that gets caught by the auditors doing this. However, and there's always a 'however'. If having investigated and you showed that Person A stole the card and used it in the supermarket ATM then gave it to Person B who used it at the three bank ATMs you would get another crime of theft. If 'B' only used it at one of the banks - person C at the second and person D at the third then you would be allowed to record three further offences as there would be four different victim/offender relationships. Then there's the 'finished incident' rule that can change things further!
  20. Reasonable Man

    Counting Rules

    Perhaps our forces deal with things completely differently but I arrest a suspect, book them into custody, phone the Crime Bureau and say, 'I want to record a crime of X.' they take the details and sometime will say, 'By the MO you have given that's offence Y and not offence X.' (sometimes you argue and sometime you don't). I then gather (more) evidence, interview and make a decision as to what offence I want to charge, discuss it with the gatekeeper/CPS and charge. Whilst I do not care what the stats say I cannot be oblivious to what is being recorded is at variance to my police law training. Perhaps you never record a crime, never interview prisoners and never prepare charges but if not and it appears the you are not an ESSO staff then what do you do?
  21. Reasonable Man

    What the public should do when meeting police

    NeeNaw, of course I agree that you don't turn up in the Saloon in Tombstone when the bar stools are flying and start with 'excuse me sirs...' I was looking at this thread from the point of regular everyday speaking to people in or out of their cars. I would say though don't let your attitude get clouded by the fact that a lot of your time you are dealing with drunken unreasonable people who require the firm approach. I may have been lucky but I have been sent to reports of people with weapons. I stay a safe distance back, often the other side of the car from them and always start with, 'Excuse me sir/ma'am/miss but it has been reported that you have been seen with a knife (cosh/AK47). Do you have any weapons on you?' In nearly all cases I get a reasonable (if not truthful) answer and about half the time I get an admission and so get them to put the weapon on the floor and move away. If I get a 'no' I explain that I will have to search them and usually do that safely with compliance. When they don't want to act reasonably that's when 'Billy Baton' or 'Peter Pava' come out (not yet got 'Terry Taser') to assist.
  22. Reasonable Man

    Counting Rules

    Remember, "A Constable is a citizen, locally appointed, with authority under the Crown. His primary duties are the protection of life and property, the prevention and detection of crime and the prosecution of offenders against the peace." How can you prevent and detect crime and prosecute offenders if you do not record crime or charge offenders? I know that some places more than others have become production lines of policing where some officers arrest, others interview, others do the paperwork but I have always believed in seeing my job through to the end. That way you understand the bigger picture and so learn to do a better job all around. In my experience those officers who put importance on making arrests tend to make most on nights so they cannot see the job through but have them locked up for the night for someone else to deal with in the morning. Weak grounds for arrest, little or no evidence gathered at the time, poor statements, if any.
  23. Reasonable Man

    G20 Protests

    Not had time to read 45 pages of posts so apologies if I am repeating something but it is not only the PSD that you need to worry about. Defence solicitors are researching social networking sites to identify officers so they can attack their character or integrity in court. At least with a Reg 7 notice you have time to consult a 'friend' (real Fed Rep type) and prepare a response, but stood in the box doing a goldfish impression in front of the man with the wig and Father Christmas outfit is not a comfortable place to be. Reasonable Man2009-05-01 21:10:12
  24. Reasonable Man

    St Georges day

    Well said Battenburg. We should be proud to be British, and if it offends these minority groups, too bad, they can stuff it. If they come to live in OUR country, they follow OUR rules, if they don't like it, go back where you came from. If we are proud to be British then we should fly the Union Flag not the Cross of St George - that shows proud to be English.