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movingzachb

Start arming UK police?

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After reading the article about the London bridge incident where an officer used only his baton in this against an attacker, maybe its time to start carrying some sort of ready to go small side arm.
Probably wouldn't hurt. Would not rely on a taser though.

 

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So to those who think that cops should be armed, what would happen to those serving cops who don't pass the firearms course, or can't shoot accurately on the range? Are they to be disciplined and eventually dismissed?

Edited by Yorkshire

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On ‎04‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 18:42, movingzachb said:


After reading the article about the London bridge incident where an officer used only his baton in this against an attacker, maybe its time to start carrying some sort of ready to go small side arm.
Probably wouldn't hurt. Would not rely on a taser though.

 

I heard on the news that a member of the public was wounded by a gun shot!  The incident started with three men, in a van, mowing people down on the bridge as the earlier incident.  A gun would not prevent that and it would be pure chance if an Officer was on the scene in the first place.

Mark and Yorkshire make very salient points. Now retired I would not want a gun. When serving I did have one and handed in my ticket to disqualify me from having access to one. So at that time my answer became like Mark's.

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I agree with Zulu. When I was serving, I spoke to a number of D.P.G officers in the Met. and they, having spoken to many firearms officers, said that most of them were giving serious consideration to handing in their ticket because there was very little support from the job at that time if one used their firearm. That was some 14 years ago now so given the current climate in the big cities recently, officer's opinions may have changed, but to echo Zulu again, I would not want to carry a gun now.

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3 minutes ago, Westie said:

I agree with Zulu. When I was serving, I spoke to a number of D.P.G officers in the Met. and they, having spoken to many firearms officers, said that most of them were giving serious consideration to handing in their ticket because there was very little support from the job at that time if one used their firearm. That was some 14 years ago now so given the current climate in the big cities recently, officer's opinions may have changed, but to echo Zulu again, I would not want to carry a gun now.

Just one other thing. I would seriously question the ability of some officers having the right approach/outlook (shall we say) to carry a weapon, there are some that I would not have wanted to work with, but only a few though (but that's enough in my book).

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On 05/06/2017 at 22:14, Yorkshire said:

So to those who think that cops should be armed, what would happen to those serving cops who don't pass the firearms course, or can't shoot accurately on the range? Are they to be disciplined and eventually dismissed?

Interesting point. What  happens to  police officers in an armed police force in a foreign country, such as USA or France, where all police officers are routinely armed if they fail their periodic firearms qualification? 

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On 04/06/2017 at 18:42, movingzachb said:


After reading the article about the London bridge incident where an officer used only his baton in this against an attacker, maybe its time to start carrying some sort of ready to go small side arm.
Probably wouldn't hurt. Would not rely on a taser though.

 

To an extent I agree with you and I suspect the day is fast approaching when all police officers will have to be armed.  I carried a firearm  while still serving but never had to use it.  I can recollect 2 occasions during my service when officers shot and killed armed criminals and another occasion when one of them wounded an armed man.  They had to go through a period of uncertainty while waiting to be informed if they would be prosecuted and were given little support from the force during that period, despite the fact that the circumstances were patently clear and there was no great public or political outcry for heads to roll.

However, the position has changed and in several instances in recent years where officers have shot criminals there has been little support for them and  if I was serving nowadays, fear of prosecution etc. would make me wary about volunteering to carry a firearm. The current wave of support for the police in the wake of recent  terrorist events in the UK may well be short-lived: the public are very fickle.

r

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Non of you had better say any of this on the other Police Community forum as you would be shouted down by the Met, PCSO's and Specials. You will even get the odd insult for having an opinion against arming of the Police. It appears that many of the younger breed are very pro arming with an alarming Gung Ho attitude. They refuse to see the dangers of every officer being armed. We on here seem to have more experience and we all know of officers that we would not trust with a pea shooter, never mind a side arm.

Like OC I have been trained and carried firearms. Every shooting incident turns into a witch hunt of the officer with very little, if any support from above. It was after one such incident where one of my team was being pursued by enquiry, after enquiry. What ever I wanted to say on his behalf was ignored and as a protest I handed in my firearms ticket, and was immediately moved from the team onto other duties. The officer got very little support and, where he was completely cleared of any blame, there was no apology support or anything.

Firearms are lethal weapons and in the wrong Police hands only disaster can follow. There have been cases in this country where the use of firearms has been touch and go, and that is by AFO's.  If you look into the system in the US it is littered with cases where officers have lost their heads, or over reacted and people have been fatally shot when it was unnecessary. 

There may be a case for an increase in AFO's, but all that would do is decrease manpower on the streets still further. AFO's are officers on mobile patrol or on standby waiting for an incident to happen and respond to, or attending intelligence incidents. If that Intel is wrong or flawed then you have a case similar to the Grainger case in Manchester where a man was shot dead who was supposed to be in an armed robbery team. No weapons were found and the public enquiry is still in progress. The fact that the four men were in a stolen Audi seems to be a point to be ignored by the press and public.

Have I carried, Yes, would I carry again, No, if still serving would I want all officers to be armed No.

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Interesting points but all our firearms officers are double crewed, if they are called to a job then many cars attend, deal and then leave many hours later with District sorting out the prisoners & paperwork etc…………if we were all armed then there would be no one left to do the basic jobs, so it will never happen.

In the last intake of firearms, 75% failed the course, a few years ago a Sgt & PC got send back to district after many years on a firearms team due to shooting not up to the required standard, so what would happen with these people if all officers were required to be armed?

At this time the threat level has increased for all of us so management are putting out more double crewed taser officers and single crewing officers who are not taser trained…….Guess who are attending & dealing with the most jobs, correct non taser officers and we are sinking fast. If management gave us all guns then we would be sunk:P

 

 

 

Edited by Mark101
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Also, if all cops were to be armed, how would they deal with public order? Currently our firearms cops aren't supposed to get involved in public order incase they are overpowered and have their firearm taken from them.

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Yeap, Had a discussion the other day where I suggested that due to the increased risk to officers then all taser officers should be single crewed and all non taser officers should be double crewed and someone said, what happens if the single crewed taser officer is overpowered, they need to be double crewed incase that happens…..I laughed………I think management need to rethink their deployment plans.

Edited by Mark101
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15 hours ago, Yorkshire said:

Also, if all cops were to be armed, how would they deal with public order? Currently our firearms cops aren't supposed to get involved in public order incase they are overpowered and have their firearm taken from them.

A very valid question to which I would be interested to know the answer.  What do they do in countries where the police are routinely armed when they have to deal with public order situations?

Years ago I spoke to an armed RUC officer who said he had never encountered any problem with this issue and stated he had recently dealt with a large scale disturbance at a dance hall where he ended up struggling on the ground with a prisoner.  He told me he knew of only one instance where a police officer had been cornered and forcibly deprived of his firearm. I also knew a retired Royal Hong Police officer who told me of several instances where criminals had `mugged' patrolling constables with the intention of robbing them of their routinely armed firearm.

It is a difficult issue and I can think of many public order incidents where I was attacked by a hostile crowd while making arrests and could have had a firearm taken from me. 

However, whatever the situation I think much of the solution is down to individual officers who volunteer to carry firearms.  Are they really  made fully aware of the highly possible consequences which face them if things go wrong?  Are they willing to accept these consequences and the long term effect they may have on them and their families?.

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I have never seen an AFO on a front line Public Order, PSU event. I have only known them respond to firearms events, or on a general security patrol such as after the Manchester and London events. 

This forum has officers of service and experience and all are, generally against the routine arming of Police. The newer brigade seen to have a different opinion, and that alarms and frightens me more.

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Theres been a recent push in my force to single crew officers, even taser officers. I wouldn't want to be single crewed with a firearm attending routine incidents. It only takes a second to be overpowered and then you have someone pointing your own firearm at you. No thanks.

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