Sign in to follow this  
M&MBM

HGV Road "Ramming"

Recommended Posts

Sorry for those who don't use Facebook, but here's a story causing quite a bit of interest.

 

https://www.facebook.com/bbclookeast/videos/983439725070240/?comment_id=983729278374618&reply_comment_id=983741898373356&notif_t=video_reply

 

The car driver looks like he was being a middle lane nitwit, but the HGV should not have responded by ramming - if that's what he actually did.

 

But what I want to know is - are we now allowed to "undertake" assatated bty one of the respondents? I was under the impression that it was still illegal to do so unless the traffic is moving in a queue situation, in which case sometimes lane 1 will be moving faster than lane 2 or 3 or (4.)

 

I've moved over into lkane 2 to let people onto the motorway, doing 70, then found it hard to m,ove back to lane 1 after the juncyion because of people overtaking on thew inside at far higher speeds.

 

What is the law now? Has it changed in thw 1988 Traffic Act as the person says?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me it looked as if the smaller vehicle was in lane two when the HGV illegally went over into lane 3 to overtake. (It only appeared to be a 3 lane motorway) There was an amendment to the RTA a few months ago where it was also illegal to drive along lane 2 when it was possible to move over into lane 1. In this case it looked as if lane 1 was.clear so there is no excuse, however being at night the camera may have not caught all the details. The drivers speech describes the incident as 'being colided with' not a ramming.

 

The HGV appeared to be travelling considerably faster than the smaller vehicle and being up to 42 tonnes in weight, a slight collision such as a 'side swipe' may not have been noticed by the driver. As this was on a dark motorway the HGV driver may also have misjudged the distance before pulling in. He did appear to be overtaking too closely to the smaller vehicle. My take on what is shown, given what was available to us, is that both drivers were to some degree to blame. In the first few seconds of the video the HGV was behind the smaller vehicle and didn't show any signs of a rear end 'nudge' so it may have been a 'side swipe'. the drivers voice did not make this clear.

 

What I did see (in the 1st couple of seconds) appeared to be the 4 way indicators flashing on the smaller vehicle which were reflected in the paintwork of the HGV. Did the car driver have problems with his car or was this as a result of a rear end nudge before the filming began, I also cannot see how the camera can be pointing in 2 directions at once.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's how it appeared to me too, BR. TBH from the clip shown, it seemed like the car driver was being self-righteous about a speed limit and blocking the HGV, or dsomething.. The inside lane was clear and so he should have moved over.

 

However, we only see a small, edited clip, and have no idea of what went on before. It might be that the HGV had rammed/collided with the car previous to that, and that the car driver was rather foolishly trying to stop the truck driver - who was perhaps unaware of the collision and thought what a numpty, I'll show him.

 

I was on the A40 in Greenford many years ago when an HGV clipped my car with his rubber tyre splashguard, yet was oblivious to having done so, so slight coming togethers are possible without one party being aware.

 

I have also had HGVs up my exhaust when I'm on the inside lane doing the speed limit in roadworks, and flashing - God knows where they think I'm going to move over to.  In the new managed bit, I've seen them blithely ignoring the gantry speed limits, overtaking those who are obeying the law on both sides. I've even seen them in the outside lane doing this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But my main reason for posting this is this chap's comments. (This is a quote lifted from Facebook, not my words).

 

Graham Crawford Thank goodness everyone is seeing this for what it is.

A stupid little panicky car user on the motorway driving slower than HGV's while hogging the middle lane and being an absolute chaos causing road user.


HGV drivers are the best on the road most of the time.

Very restricted, drive long distances they see drivers like this utter numpty on regular occasions.

The last thing we need is him being supported by the community when his driving behaviour is at fault for causing the frustration that goes on to make a lorry driver react in such a way.

If you want to drive at what looks like about 50mph then stick to the left hand lane at all times you utter moron. That way you won't slow all three lanes when lorries overtake.

And just to inform more clowns like him.


There is no undertaking law anymore.

It was abolished with the road traffic act 1988

As long as you are driving safely then undertaking is legal.


Numpties like this clown are the unsafe drivers as they are the main cause of frustration on the roads. Learn to drive considerately and HGV drivers won't need to nudge you into the correct lane....

I'm a small van driver and spend hours of my day on the road. Never in my life have I seen an HGV driver act in a way that causes frustration.
But cars driven by the likes of this idiot are a daily occurrence.

Learn this document if you intend to drive in the vicinity of others.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52
 
Like · Reply · 6 · 2 hours ago
 
Basically, is the assertion in red correct? Can we overtake on the inside nowadays? I didn't think we could, unless we are in slow moving traffic where one lane changes speed in relation to the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just looked up the Highway Code and it says under "lane discipline sec 264" that people should use the left hand lane unless overtaking and then return to it - so that hasn't changed since I passed my test 33 years ago. So hogging lane 2 isn't on and I can understand the truck driver's frustration. BUT that is no excuse for bullying let alone ramming - of that's what happened.  

 

And section 268 says to not overtake on the left. It then goes on to say that in congested conditions, the left hand lane traffic could be moving a little faster than the right. -as per my understanding above.

 

That's not the same as "undertaking" as per Mr Crawford's assertion above.

 

Please can you clarify?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lorry drivers are being followed by there bosses from base with their control systems and are given a drop time at a location especially the big companies like M&S. if he is running on time and this guy is holding him up he has to make the time up. If he is close to his location the lorry driver cannot make up the time and can get his load rejected. That causes big costs for the haulier. Lorry drivers are not perfect, there are some who are bullies, on the whole they are good drivers.I have driven Heavy Goods, if you are tootling to a location give these lads the space and help them to do there jobs, they may just be delivering the thing you want when you get to where you are going.

 

How many times do you come up behind these middle lane hogger's and go from inside to outside and back to inside. and then see them move over  to the inside. They are just not concentrating in a world of there own. 

 

Had the Lorry driver given them a horn or two, then moved up close behind, to get them to move over and they had taken the I'm offended at that attitude.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a fuller report on the BBC Look East lunch time news. The car driver was in lane 2, having passed an HGV in lane 1, and the HGV in lane 2 flashes him because lane 1 is completely clear for a long way after HGV 1. Car driver could have easily moved over, and, bearing in mind that we still only have some of the information, IMO should have moved into lane 1 to allow the HGV to overtake safely. But car driver instead puts his hazards on. Why? In the BBC lunchtime news reports he says it's because as soon as the HGV flashed him, his field of vision closed down and he wasn't capable of moving into lane 1 because he was so confused. 

 

What!

 

This is a moderately young man who claims he is an ex-Special (how cringeworthy)  not some doddery old ninny, though it could have been, for all the HGV driver knew.

 

Initially I had some sympathy because I've had HGV drivers come so close behind me when I'm in lane 1 doing the speed limit in roadworks, and flash me repeatedly, and drive so close that all I can see in my rear view mirror is their radiator. Where they thought I should go, God only knows, because I was in lane 1 already and they could have passed in lane 2 (I think - though there may have been width restrictions). The point is, intimidating someone by tailgating them and flashing is both stupid and nasty. people should be able to drive at a speed they feel comfortable with ie the speed limit, not bullied into breaking speed limits just to suit the HGV driver, who, it seems, has a more accurate speedo.  

 

But that's not what appears to be happening in this case. What appears to be happening is this man, who is trying to sell dash cams, drives in lane 2  and fails to move back into lane 1, and when the HGV, who is still some distance behind him, flashes to say, "Let me past please", puts on his hazard lights, and still fails to move over, as if to say, "Ner, ner, this is what happens when you flash me." Then the HGV moves into lane 3 and passes car driver, at least coming perilously close, possibly clipping him, though not sufficiently to even rock the car, just enough to give the car driver brown trousers. If it was deliberate, it was stupidly dangerous. If it was inadvertent, it was totally incompetent.

 

Then the car driver phones the police on 999 because suddenly he's out of his depth because the HGV driver looks as if he's being an aggressive dick. But if it was a true emergency, why didn't car driver just drop back? Why did he have to follow the HGV?  If he was too scared to get back into the lane he should have been in, why was he not too scared to follow the HGV?  

 

He may well have phoned 999 six times, but perhaps the operators thought the incident was over, not ongoing, and there were more important things to attend to.

 

As usual, the BBC make out it's some failing of the police, whereas it looks like 2 drivers being complete dicks, and a road rage incident which had apparently finished.

 

Unless, of course, there is more to the story - and there may be, because even when the car driver is in lane 1 there is a clip of the HGV cutting past, possibly clipping him, definitely close enough to be intimidating.

 

They need their heads banging together, the pair of them.

 

It also seems to me that the car driver thought the fame would help his dash can business, but instead people have been pointing out what a plonker he was. Suddenly his infamy is doing him no favours. The whole enterprise may blow up in his face.

 

But whatever, none of this answers my real reason for [posting this, and that is, has the law about overtaking on the inside (undertaking) been repealed, please? or is this a dangerous rumour circulating drivers' forums, emboldening people to do potentially dangerous manoeuvers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never heard of the permission for undertaking being given carte blance clearance. I have heard that in lines of slow moving traffic it is permissable to undertake but only with due care. Motorway speeds such as were shown are not slow by any stretch of the imagination so undertaking could at best be described as careless driving but most probably dangerous driving.

 

 Undertaking at those speeds will lead you to another form of undertaker! :(

 

With that video evidence I think both drivers should appear in court, give their excuses, then be banned and not allowed to drive again until they have passed an extended test..

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't viewed the video but to answer your question, M, the law and The Highway Code should not be confused. There is no LAW expressly saying you cannot undertake, but The Highway Code ADVICE is that you shouldn't, unless in queuing traffic.

Of course, in many scenarios on motorways and other fast roads, undertaking is likely to equate to careless driving at the very least. I reported dozens of motorists for it when I worked on Traffic, and never had a not guilty at Court. I still vividly recall a CPS lawyer telling me she would quite happily prosecute those who do it on motorways for dangerous driving.

I'm not sure in the majority of cases I would have gone that far but it illustrates a point. Just because the law no longer says per sé that you cannot undertake does not necessarily make it any more legal. It's just mopped up under other legislation.

Edited by billysboots
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never understood why undertaking, especially on a motorway, is illegal in this country. It's like speeding, considered not dangerous in itself in other countries but it is here.

I know recently 'middle lane hogging' has become illegal but if someone wants to sit in the middle lane at 60mph and I want to pass them what is inherently dangerous, or careless about passing them on the left rather than the right? If it was allowed it may make people keep to the left lane and/or make them more aware about what's going on all around them so making them better drivers.

Sent from me using Witchcraft

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find that a lot of drivers find extreme difficulty in keeping themselves aware of what is going on around them especially on the off side. Given the use of mobile phones, drinking, eating, falling asleep, being generally incompetant drivers and having their minds elsewhere, other than being in charge of a lethal weapon Allowing general overtaking on the left, I submit is a recipe for disaster. 

 

At least if the 'no overtaking on the inside' guidelines are in place, the possability of arriving at your destination unscathed is increased.

 

I have driven over roads in the more easily accessible areas of Europe since 1976, (and still do) whilst as you state it isn't illegal to overtake on the inside, I have never seen this written down. In Germany, France, Belgium, The Netherlands and Austria the 'no overtaking on the inside' is generally held, irrespective of what the road law over there is in place. The only time I have ever seen it breached 'en masse' was in Germany around roadworks and contraflow areas. Even on the Brussels Ring Road the lane discipline is generally better than here.

 

Especially in Germany, I find the standard of driving far in excess of UK even though speeds can be higher. Although, when there is a crash on one of the Autobahns, it is usually a big one. Filtering slow moving traffic by motorcyclists is also very much against the Traffic Law as a pal of mine will vouch. It cost him 80 Euros for doing so Near Munich

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree overtaking on the inside lanes is a recipe for disaster and is a massive danger. The only place that I know of it being legal and acceptable is in the USA. It is practised in India although it is not legal.

It is not legal in Spain, Cyprus, France, although it is done by the reckless who should not be allowed in a vehicle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Middle lane hogging is not a specific offence. What changed was that the police were given powers to issue roadside punishments for offences under Section 3 of the RTA whereas previously a summons would have been issued. This means straightforward minor issues of driving without due care or careless / inconsiderate driving witnessed by Police could be dealt with more speedily and without the need for court appearances and lots of time consuming paperwork.

As there is now an ongoing investigation I won't comment on the video.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your answers.

 

I used to move into the next lane to let vehicles joining the motorway/dual carriageway on, then move back. I don't do it so much nowadays because it's often impossible to get back across because of people belting past at 90 on your inside.

 

Or an issue with slow moving traffic ahead resolves itself which would in theory mean me returning to the middle  lane - except I can't because something has come up my inside.

 

Or I'm trying to pass something, leaving a sensible gap between myself and the vehicle in front passing that vehicle, and something belts up on the inside and pushes in. That annoys me.

 

In theory people should not be able to pass on the inside, because we should be in the appropriate lane, but traffic is so dynamic nowadays and the situation changes constantly, and sometimes people get stuck, too scared to move over because of the people belting past on the inside. Myself included. I suspect that one of the most hazardous manoeuvres on the motorway is when someone on the inside lane decides they want to move into lane 2 at the same time as someone in lane 3 decides they want to move over. Banning overtaking on the inside at least reduces the chances of that sort of accident.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.