Backlash

Officer warned he could face murder charge

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Whilst the full facts can't be reported I would suggest all our firearms colleagues have a long hard think about the decision they have made, to carry a gun. It's unfortunate that it's the lonely officer who has to make a split second decision then faces the anti police brigade. Having carried a firearm for a few years on arv' s I speak from some experience. The Hmg rely on our goodwill however the current anti police feeling being supported privately through the media by the home office, would make me hand my ticket it, we are surely be shafted both ways. I wish the officer well and hope for a evidenced factual outcome.

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The IPCC are copmpletely unbiased, and yet, they publicise that they are considering charges of Murder or Manslaughter. That sounds very like those bastions of uprightness had already entered the investigastion with a prejudiced opinion, preconcieved of the enquiry.

I sense that they atre just looking for a scapegoat. We will now see just how the G.M.P. look after their officers. I would not hold your breath on that issue.

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Yes, Zulu22, finding a scapegoat has long been an SMT strategy.

I once served under a chief constable who, when told of matters where things had gone wrong, would often say, `Find someone and blame him.'' It does every officer well to remember that, at the end of the day, SMT usually regard them as expendable. The current crop of ACPO quislings are certainly of that belief. The current CC of GMP certainly strikes me as being in that mould.

Towards the end of my service I was involved in a death in custody incident and well remember the various attempts made to place the blame on me and my custody officer. They failed miserably at the end of the day because there was nothing at all neglectful or sinister about the incident.

However, it was somewhat alarming that the Force was willing to sacrifice 2 long serving, loyal officers on the alter of `scapegoatism.'

All of you should be careful out there, especially those who carry fireams or drive Police Vehicles. I think you are the wheat but HMG and your SMT regard you as the chaff.

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Very worrying times. There will be highly polarized opinions on this matter from every perspective. I take my hat off to those cops who take the decision to carry firearms, however I will never carry one. Not out of a fear or lack of confidence in firearms (ex HMF) but because of the potential consequences of doing your job, should you be unfortunate enough to pull the trigger. Whatever the scenario, whatever the circs, whatever intelligence or tactical planning precedes the incident, regardless of the size of the can of worms it opens, one thing is eternally certain, the blame will always be focussed on the cop on the trigger.

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Very worrying times. There will be highly polarized opinions on this matter from every perspective. I take my hat off to those cops who take the decision to carry firearms, however I will never carry one. Not out of a fear or lack of confidence in firearms (ex HMF) but because of the potential consequences of doing your job, should you be unfortunate enough to pull the trigger. Whatever the scenario, whatever the circs, whatever intelligence or tactical planning precedes the incident, regardless of the size of the can of worms it opens, one thing is eternally certain, the blame will always be focussed on the cop on the trigger.

As someone that is giving consideration to applying for a firearms role this is playing havoc on my mind.

I have no doubt in my mind that i am suited to the job and ive been told that my name has come up from various ARV sgts as a suitable candidate. However I have grave concerns about the likelihood of being hung out to dry by all.

As the polcing situation within this country deteriorates and the requirement for and use of armed officers increases I am getting the impression that carrying a firearm is a lighting the fuse on a timebomb for your career. If you think SMT are willing to make scapegoats out of you now, wait to see what happens when SMT is made up of snot faced, direct entry uni graduates that have never actually had to go out and look into the eyes of the people we deal with every day.

I remain open to the very real possibility that the officer in this case hasnt acted as he should and could well be guilty of unlawfully killing Grainger. However I can not and will not ever completely eliminate the element of doubt that he is the sacrificial lamb to the public outcry. A conviction of muder for a police officer doing his job may aswell carry a death sentence because his life is exactly what they are taking away.

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The way things are developing I suspect it might be wise to err on the side of caution insofar as volunteering to carry firearms is concerned. Being firearms trained and working on an ARV etc. can be very satisfying and interesting but if something goes wrong (and we are all human no matter how well trained we may be) the consequences could be dire.

Even if finally exonorated, the many weeks and months of worry before a decision about one's future is made may not be worth it. This would affect not only the officer, but his family, and I suspect they would quickly discover that they were personna non grata and no longer part of that entity called the Police Family (which we hear much of these days) if the officer concerned was convicted of unlawful killing.

If I was still serving I would have to give very serious consideration as to whether or not I would volunter to carry firearms.

Towards the end of my service it was the drivers of Police vehicles who were being hung out to dry if they were involved in an RTC and I heard of more than one comment from the bench (when acquitting a Police driver of careless driving ) to the effect that the case was unlikely to have been brought had the accused not been a Police Officer.

I think such instances are even more likely to occur where a firearms officer is involved and Officers are being increasingly treated as cannon fodder.

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Let's take some stock here.

We are all responsible for our actions and use of force. When we use force we all know that we may need to justify that use of force. No matter what that force is/was. A push, a hold, a strike, etc...

Indeed, I have accounted for the force I've used moreso than anybody I've been assaulted by has had to.

Any officer that is involved in a job where somebody dies may be investigated for murder/manslaughter. That is just not 'news'.

The principle though, about force, is that it's not whether it was proportional when looked upon in an inquest or investigation, when all the facts are known and can be looked at in minute detail...........but what the officer's "honestly held belief" was at the time that he acted.

Honestly held belief.

Nobody, least of all the DM, knows what went on at that incident. What was seen, what was thought to be seen, what went on in the briefing prior to the job, what the intel package was, what the individual officer's threat assessment was.............and so on...........right up to "honestly held belief"................nobody but the team themselves. It'll come out I'm sure. But until then the DM and their vindictive ilk, are just spitballing...........and it's a real shame because they ignore, indeed they don't give a s**t about, the personal grief and soul-searching that is going on with the family, friends or the officers involved.

I hold a firearms authority and won't consider handing it back until I see what the investigation comes up with.

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The other side of the coin, is that it has been publicised how after the high number of deaths in custody, car chases, shootings very few officers have ever been jailed. Perhaps there is a macho or gungho culture which is caused by the inherent difficulty in successfully prosecuting officers when things have gone wrong? To the police this may seem like the 'anti police brigade' or 'cop bashing', but compared to other professions such as health, or education, deaths caused by split second errors of judgement can lead to jail for negligence.

Another point to note, in some high profile cases such as Harry Stanley and the Stockwell, the officers involved went on to be promoted. So who is that in whose best interest? The public or police? The serving officers must be happy because they know if anything else went wrong, surely their commanding officer who previously involved in that tragic incident, knows how to get them off the hook?

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The other side of the coin, is that it has been publicised how after the high number of deaths in custody, car chases, shootings very few officers have ever been jailed. Perhaps there is a macho or gungho culture which is caused by the inherent difficulty in successfully prosecuting officers when things have gone wrong? To the police this may seem like the 'anti police brigade' or 'cop bashing', but compared to other professions such as health, or education, deaths caused by split second errors of judgement can lead to jail for negligence.

Another point to note, in some high profile cases such as Harry Stanley and the Stockwell, the officers involved went on to be promoted. So who is that in whose best interest? The public or police? The serving officers must be happy because they know if anything else went wrong, surely their commanding officer who previously involved in that tragic incident, knows how to get them off the hook?

You really are a troll aren't you isambard...

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You really are a troll aren't you isambard...

The possibility is noted. isambard, please note that trolls are not permitted in this forum and are liable to become banned.

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I think it's just ignorance talking. Unfortunately that ignorance is accompanied by a closed mind as previous discussions have shown.

Isambard, there's a bit of a difference between medical negligence and this sort of thing. Yes, mistakes happen, and people have to answer for it, but if a medical practitioner has not been negiligent, just unfortunate, they don't end up in jail and people don't keep on and on about it as if it's a miscarriage of justice for years and years. The same with a police officer. If he has had to kill for the benefit of society, but it was justified, then he won't go to prison either. Both cases have to be looked at and sloppy gungho medics pruned out as well as sloppy gungho coppers. The difference seems to be that because coppers have to face scrutiny after use of force, people view it very differently from a medic who was trying to safe someone's life.

If you have a duty to protect the public, if you are the last line between decent life for everyone and gang-led anarchy, then sometimes you have to make split-second decisions based on your perception at the time, not the mumblings of an armchair warrior with the clarity of hindsight and 365 vision.

What would you rather have? A police force who sometimes shoot people when they're innocent but at that critical time look very dangerous or would you rather have the country run by people who will rob you, rape your family, murder you, subvert your kids? Because when it boils down to it, that is the choice.

Different jobs. Different sort of errors. Why should police officers be found guilty in the media when a medic his assumed innocent by the media?

We rely on both doing their job properly, both should come under scrutiny when things go wrong.

If you want to bleat about criminal negligence, look at industry. Particularly the building industry a few years back. Or coal mining. All have their bad managers.

And while you're at it, look at delivery drivers who are on such a tight schedule that they cut corners.

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The possibility is noted. isambard, please note that trolls are not permitted in this forum and are liable to become banned.

:thumbup3:

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Isamabard,

can your provide some figures on the "high number of deaths in custody" please. Whilst doing that please put it along side the numbers of people that actually enter custody in the U.K, just to give it some context.

You keep sprouting the same thing regarding stockwell and give very loose comparisons with medical professionals. If you are going to try and enter into debate over these issues, please do so with a little it of knowledge, evidence and detail (saying " I've spoken to nameless / faceless people doesnt hold much water). At the moment you can only be looked upon as a troll because you seem to be doing none of these things and only offer potentially inlflammatory, poorly thought out comments.

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